Not everyone agrees with me...

Especially not my partner in crime, Shaun Mckee! He's a composer for Superhero Live! and plays the Bass Player.

I'm importing this blog onto my Facebook page (... yeah, I'm on Crackbook...) and Shaun had his own two cents on my review of SPIDER-MAN 3. Read on, superhero lovers, and see which side you agree with:

*** I should add that since Shaun's a notoriously slow typer, this original conversation was all mixed up because I would respond to Shaun's comments before he was finished typing them. I've tried to reedit so that it all makes sense. However I'm a biased editor, so if you think I'm winning this argument, it's probably because I made it to look that way... ;-)

SHAUN:
K, I will play number 1 to Aaron's captain Picard. First Aaron's main problem with the movie, at least what i get from his review, is how Spidey is seen as a hero by the people of New York. Aaron you know I have read a lot more spidey comics then you and you seem to forget, the people of New York have always loved spidey. But the comics dont focus on that cause why bother, people who love spiderman dont make a good story.it is J. Jonah Jameson who hates Spiderman, and the daily bugle gives him all his bad press cause jj runs it. I should mention I am talking classic spidey here not ultimate by the way. Yes there have been points where spiderman has been public enemy number 1, but this is definetly not the status quo in the marvel universe. Just because spidey is villified in the media that does not make it the public opinion. Just take the american media and the Iraq war as an example.

Now don't get me wrong here I thought Spiderman 3 was definitely disappointing, I give it a 6.5 out of ten, but it must be said there is flashes of brilliance in this movie, and also flashes of wtf were they thinking. Some of the best sequences of the trilogy were in this movie, but some of the worst sequences also. I fucking hate singing and dancing in my movies. and there were three of these sequences for no fucking reason. Why the hell would you have peter dancing to show how badass he has become? Hi im peter im turning evil, now look at me dance? Raimi you fucking idiot. You hear peter say he is becoming more powerful, but why not show this instead of giving him a god damned emo hair style and having him dance.

AARON:
I couldn't agree more! It was like watching a nightmare... I don't what they were thinking. And it's true there were some good moments in the film... but few and far between. Mostly they were great action sequences.

SHAUN:
By far though my favorite moment from the screening I attended was after the big jazz club sequence and peter accidentally "hits" MJ, in what was I imagine supposed to be a powerful dramatic moment,a four year old boy sitting in the row ahead of me said " she deserved it". The entire theater howled with laughter as his mother in disbelief asked "what did you say" he repeated " she deserved it".

AARON:
Weird: Some kid in our theatre in Toronto called her a tramp when she kissed Harry too. How come no one said anything when Spidey did the upside-down kiss with Gwen? That was BRUTAL! Nobody called Peter a Man-Whore.

Can you say double-standard?

See, my main problem in the film is not the fact that he was reviled -- I used that point to show that the film had totally departed from what makes Spiderman great -- how he suffers and perseveres. You're right -- you've read more Spiderman comics than me, but dude, all those New Yorkers were meant to represent public opinion in general -- esp. American public opinion and this was shown by the Spidey-pose in front of the stars and stripes. You're pretty generous with your rating... I'd put mine closer to a 3 out of 10 or less. I'm harsh because that movie was SUPPOSED TO BE GREAT. Same creative team, same core group that made the other two fabulous, and yet shit result.
But to be sure there were some things I liked:
1) Brilliant casting. Topher was awesome as Eddie Brock and Thomas Hayden Chuch looked like Stan Lee himself drew him (too bad the writers gave him a shit storyline though)
2) Acting was overall pretty good. Especially Topher, THC and James Franco (Green Goblin). The dialogue a lot of the time was shit, but the cast was talented enough to make it work most of the time.
3) F/X -- first spidey and green goblin fight was especially good. Venom looked suitably scary, they got the costume's alien appearance right, and Topher looked good with the crooked teeth
4) Peter Parker totally clueless -- at the beginning I was cringing with embarrassment with Peter's bonehead decisions about women and what not. That was great.
5) Bruce Campbell -- brilliant, again, nuff said.

SHAUN:
I actually like everything about this movie except everything to do with Mary Jane which unfortunately is about 50 percent of this movie. And singing and dancing. Is that not why we did superhero in the first place, to make a musical without the singing and dancing?

AARON:
Dude. Come on. What about that terrible sequence at the end with Sandman explaining himself to Peter? Long, boring and no need. It tried to make Sandman sympathetic, but instead it just made him unbelievable. What about the Butler coming out of nowhere and telling Harry how he cleaned Gobby's wound. Totally awkward plot structure -- and even if he did "clean the wound," how would he know it was a self-inflicted wound? The dialogue was terrible and the story was weak.

(But yeah -- we made SHL! so that you guys could rock out and I didn't have to sing...
But mostly to make a kick-ass story and hang out and talk superheroes and read comics and call it a business expense!!!)

SHAUN:
Dude have you ever read a comic with sandman in it? That is the sandman character to a tee. And yes it may be unbelievable but we are taking about COMIC BOOK characters. Sandman was always a sympathetic character and for the last fifteen years he has been a hero not a villan in the spiderman stories. Hell he was even an Avenger for a couple of years.

And the butler, well yes that was simply a plot device to advance the story, because they dug themselves a hole and forgot a shovel.

AARON:
Hm...
To tell you the truth, the Sandman I'm most familiar with is the one from the 60's cartoon...
I still thought the plotline with the daughter was extraneous and I didn't believe him when he said he was "sorry" and "he didn't want this" at the end. I don't care if they are comic book characters. They still have to be believable.

SHAUN:
I know but if you are familiar with the sandman character he is actually the most faithfully represented spiderman character in all three movies.

AARON:
If Sandman is the most accurately represented hero, then he is complex enough to focus a whole movie on him and him alone. Lot's of moral questions to explore when you're fighting a villain who's totally ruthless and yet is justified by his actions (ie. his sick daughter). Problem is, they never explored that part of his character and sacrificed it for the other four story lines they were following -- Peter and MJ, Peter and Harry, Peter and the symbiote, and the Eddie Brock storyline.

Too much.

SHAUN:
Yes too much because the studio forced Venom on him because thats what the fans wanted, was venom. I'm guilty for that and I know you are too. I wanted Venom, but not at the expense that we had to pay.

AARON:
Yeah I wanted Venom, I wanted Venom real bad.

Like I said, Topher Grace was really good. My favourite moment in the whole movie was when he was praying to God, and asked him to "kill Peter Parker". That was a truly chilling moment.

But back to the plot holes: they didn't need the butler. If Harry comes in at the end, it should be to save MJ, and that alone. Way more interesting angle -- the unlikely team-up, and then you have another element to the fight -- if they are victorious, do they then fight each other????

Why redeem the Goblin? Why redeem Harry and Peter's relationship? Why go for the happy ending when tragedy is so much more interesting...

SHAUN:
Happy ending? Dude he DIED. DEAD. Peter Parker's best and only friend in the whole world died, and thats a happy ending? Harry finally learned the truth about his best friend and his father, who was a raving lunatic who didn't love his only son, and died helping him save the girl they both loved and thats a happy ending? Just because Harry redeemed himself and finally made the right decision for the first time in the whole trilogy, does not make it a happy ending.He finally learned the truth and died to save his best friend whom he had despised for all the wrong reasons. I think thats pretty tragic dude.

AARON:
Meh. I didn't care by the time Harry died, because the story had gotten all stupid by that point. Intellectually I see your point. Emotionally, I felt nothing. I didn't care. Sure he learned the truth about his father, but the way the story revealed this (like you said) was a plot device that was forced and, well, stupid.

They shot themselves in the foot. I really didn't care when he died, I didn't care that he forgave the Sandman, and I definitely didn't care that he got back with MJ. And that makes it a terrible movie.

SHAUN:
I should add that I read a review which said the movie was crap before I saw it so I had zero expectations going in, while I am guessing you thought you were going to see the coolest movie ever, hence your huge disappointment.

AARON:
Yeah... I was expecting brilliance. I heard mixed reviews too, but man, this was supposed to be good. It was the foundation of the comic book movie industry. It had the creative core that made #1 good, and #2 great. What the hell happened.

SHAUN:
Overall I do not know who to blame the producers or Raimi. He has stated numerous time in the past he is a fan of the 60s comics and the 60s comics only. He does not like Venom and never wanted to involve him.He had the power to say look I am fucking sam the man let me make the movie I want to make. He should have stuck to his guns, introduced the suit and just left venom for number 4, especially since he and the cast have expressed zero interest in returning. w

AARON:
Raimi co-wrote the film along with Ivan Raimi (his brother?) and some dude named Alvin. The two Raimi's are also credited with the story. I don't know man. I think they dropped the ball on this one. Maybe they were drunk with power, like George Lucas making the Star Wars prequels...

I think the first sequel to all the comic book movies seem to be the best: Spiderman 2, X-Men 2 were the best movies in the trilogies. So I still have hope for FF.

SHAUN:
LOL I still think Xmen 3 was better then 1 and 2 put together, lol. Yes they may have been better dramatic movies but I dont watch comic book movies to get my drama fix, I want balls to the wall action and that was Xmen 3. The first comic movie without a silly love story for the girls.

AARON:
Oh, I don't know, Shaun -- action is fine, but I think you like story too. Don't mistake romance for story. X-men 3 had a great plot and should have been just as good as 2, except they tried to do too much just like Spiderman 3 -- Dark Phoenix Saga, the Cure saga, the Death of Professor X saga -- it's like they're trying to condense all the best storylines told over years of publishing comic books into a single film, and then the movie suffers.
I think romance can work in comic book movies but it has to be done right, and you can't sacrifice action for the romance.

SHAUN:
Yes but I refuse to dislike a movie for what it isn't rather then what it is. I know I get disappointed a lot when I see a movie for the first time and I have these great expectations for what I want to see, and it's usually starts off as "well in the comics......." I think that Xmen 3 Did a damn fine job of wrapping up its storylines and character progression of the first two movies and the movies alone. Aaron superhero movies are just like the Ultimate line, they are their own stories and theirs alone.Yes they draw INSPIRATION from some classic storylines but they are not adaptations of those storylines. XMEN3 took some elements from some classic stories but still managed to use all of them to tell its own story, and used it to create a satisfying conclusion that never contradicted what had come before. It all made sense. But you are correct that the same can not be said for spiderman 3.

AARON:
You know what I wish they could have done with Venom? Make a Secret Wars movie. Then a movie with Spidey dawning the black suit in New York, and really REALLY make him go down a bad road, until he finally separates himself from it and THEN make a 3rd movie with Venom.
That's what I wish. Sucks to be me.

SHAUN:
I know Aaron, that is why we need to be in the power positions in Hollywood. Let the real fans make the movies and not the suits that read comics when they were 10 and thought spiderman was neat.